Curse

Yichi · May 08, 2009, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

Yichi, the same amount of people with poor/wrong/useless knowledge about Guild Wars had not changed. You are all just nostalgic about the early years.

Its not that I am being nostalgic about the game, nor do I want it only my way or just a certain groups way, I want the game to be better as a whole, and updating things in the game just for the sake of updating things, is definitely the wrong way to go about making your game better as a whole for everyone. Instead of looking into the problem as to why these things are broken or why they are the only things being ran, they try to throw a random buff to something else to make it just as overpowered to compensate and create a whole new batch of problems. There in lies the root of the problem.

I actually disagree with the point that the amount of people with the wrong/poor/useless knowledge hasn't changed, where in fact it has. I see more and more people come out of the wood works with retarded suggestions, or just plain bad suggestions now a days, that I guarantee do not have a higher level of experience than a few pug HA maps, or a grinding a rank or two in RA/AB/TA. There are a lot of players commenting of buffing useless skills with retarded statistics to try and make them good and a lot of retarded suggestions to current skills to try and make them unplayable. The sad part is that most of the players that had a vast knowledge of this game whether it be PvP or PvE have stopped playing or they no longer care due to Anet's past actions in not correcting problems when faced with them. Or the community completely shuts down any and all suggestions as to why the build they so adamantly love or the class they so adamantly love is bad.

boogerboy72 · May 08, 2009, 01:58 AM // 01:58

so were the skill updates released?

Apollo Smile · May 08, 2009, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogerboy72

so were the skill updates released?

No. For some reason we have 10 pages complaining about an update that hasn't even arrived yet.

(Datura) · May 08, 2009, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Wow, there are some people in this thread that hate what A-Net does with Guild Wars.
Either you quit or it's your own fault for accepting a broken game.
Meanwhile the rest of us will continue having fun.

refer · May 08, 2009, 04:19 AM // 04:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bof

People want balance, but there are 2000+ skills in the game.

Actually 1319 total (1235 for PvP use). I hate the $100,000 tournaments too. That money could be put to better use.

refer · May 08, 2009, 04:44 AM // 04:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

The problem isn't that it's too much work. The problem appears to be that the devs have no theory with which to simplify the job. There is clearly no operational definition of "broken skill". If there were, skills like Lingering Curse and PnH that fail any possible litmus test would already be gone. There is no excuse for the persistence of these skills in their present form for five months.

I'm somewhat sympathetic to the "We introduced too many skills for it to be possible to balance the game" argument, but the simple fact of the matter is that ways to achieve balance still exist. Once they realized this problem, the devs could have implemented rotating limited formats (eg: no Nightfall-only skills) for GvG to create manageable skill sets that could actually be balanced.

The lack of standards for what a "healthy" meta should look like further complicates matters. The community is splintered into multiple camps that continue to argue over the definition of a healthy meta, and those camps all demand different things. At some point, ANet needed to decide what their vision for the game was and communicate it to the player base to standardize player expectations.

Some sample schools of thought:

1) The game is "balanced" when the classic build archetype of 2 W, Me, 2x Mo, runner, and two other midliners (either a ranger and a caster or two casters) is the only sensible thing to run in GvG. Otherwise it's Build Wars, and that's unacceptable. Skill is defined by who presses keys and clicks buttons best. Top players all run the same build and tactics. Periodically, someone has a good idea and the "standard" tactics alter subtly.

Classic position of those that have been in the GvG community for a while. Always struck me as a self-serving effort to standardize bars so that you have a job and so that you can guest people easily. Still, this is the sort of game the FPS crowd generally wants - perform the same job all day every day. Meshes well with observer mode such that the community can define "good" and "bad" play easily, because people run the same bars.

2) The game is "balanced" when the number of viable build archetypes is greatest. You get good matchups and bad matchups. Skill is defined by executing plans to deal with the bad matchups and win anyway.

This is the Magic: the Gathering crowd's idea of balance. The larger the proportion of skills that see use, the better. Cookie cutter bars are bad; substituting a single skill or two in your team build regularly to keep up with changing frequencies of adversary builds is essential. Ability to press keys well is helpful, but trumped by adaptability.

3) The game is "balanced" when the game is RPS. Ex: In GvG, split, 8v8 and spike builds should all be viable. Split beats spike, but loses to good 8v8 teams that can counter split. 8v8 loses to spike and has to try to split it.

A blend of the above two approaches. Some diversity of builds is preferred here, but bars for the archetypes are standardized and judging player skill is thus relatively easy. You can only lose to Build Wars if you play one style to the exclusion of all others. Tactics remain more or less standardized, but tactics are sharply different when facing each archetype. Innovation occurs in the form of subtle changes to the team builds of the archetypes.

You cannot please all of the above camps. The only sensible solution is to define an objective early on, communicate the objective to the players, and work to maximize it. The disappointed players leave, but you'll get a larger exodus in the long run by disappointing all three camps.

Wow nice post... I think I'd prefer balance 2 or 3 the most.

Chocobo1 · May 08, 2009, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportacus

That's an unnecessarily broad generalization.

I don't see much that disproves it anymore.

Edit: It's really tiring to see QQ from all the PvE players all the time. Thats why it ends in a flamewar. Apparently our suggestions aren't valid, and so we don't get a say because we are the minority? Seriously a week late is a week late. If you handed in any of your work a week late, you'd get into hot water right? Same deal with GW. I remember how annoyed everyone was getting when the HoM update kept getting pushed back, there are a few changes that are vital and it's pretty annoying with it getting delayed (RoJ springs to mind).

Bleh, It's hard to explain.

Vanquisher · May 08, 2009, 10:52 AM // 10:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

I have yet to read a High End GvGer state he wants the game to go back into a two W/E shock axes, Ranger, Dom, Air midline, with two monks and Ele runner. That was the so called "Balanced" build and while it was fun and took a great deal of skill to run, no one wants it to be the only choice.

That wasn't the only choice. Not saying I want the game to go back to how it was then, but it certainly wasn't the only choice.

persuadu · May 08, 2009, 11:54 AM // 11:54

I hear they are going to bring back the original Ursan Blessing, and guess what, only assasins will be able to use that too! Jeeze, why not combine permaform and ursan for the assasins.

Seriously, I so hope they truely balance Shadowform/Permaform so either nobody can use it or everyone can use it, but just assasins or even just Sins and Eles, that needs to be addressed.

Kotetsu Rain · May 08, 2009, 12:13 PM // 12:13

As long as they do something about those overpowered Endurance Axe warriors I'll be a happy camper.

devils wraths · May 08, 2009, 12:31 PM // 12:31

the guildwars community has changed way to much since 2006 an frankly is the reason why things are like they are.

Rocky Raccoon · May 08, 2009, 12:34 PM // 12:34

I see people saying the update better be good or .........? What exactly is the "or what"?

Tamuril elansar · May 08, 2009, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajc2123

GAMES THAT DON'T HAVE MONTHLY FEES ARE NOT REQUIRED TO UPDATE ANYTHING!

if Anet wants to keep the game alive, and they want people to actually play the game, it does require updates.

Apollo Smile · May 08, 2009, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

I see people saying the update better be good or .........? What exactly is the "or what"?

They will cancel their accounts!

InfestedHydralisk · May 08, 2009, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

I see people saying the update better be good or .........? What exactly is the "or what"?

flames all around the world

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apollo Smile

No. For some reason we have 10 pages complaining about an update that hasn't even arrived yet.

because gw today is imbalanced as RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO, thatswhy everyone is complaining

Apollo Smile · May 08, 2009, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfestedHydralisk

because gw today is imbalanced as RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO, thatswhy everyone is complaining

Yeah. If only we knew of a skill update coming...

Still Number One · May 08, 2009, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

That wasn't the only choice. Not saying I want the game to go back to how it was then, but it certainly wasn't the only choice.

And that is kinda the point. The game will never be just 1 choice. Even right now you have various spikes and the no honor build to choose from. It just seems that everytime we try to say we would like the game more balanced, some people get the idea in their head we want them to create 1 perfect build and everyone will run said build until the end of time. I don't know anyone who wants that, and I won't agree with anyone who wants that to happen. Variety is an important aspect of balance imo because you should be able to win games in a variety of different ways. Not just 3..2..1 like it is now (Although you will always have to spike sometimes even in a pure split build).

Rocky Raccoon · May 08, 2009, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfestedHydralisk

flames all around the world

Just an honest question, what can you do if the update doesn't satisfy you?

Alleji · May 08, 2009, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

Just an honest question, what can you do if the update doesn't satisfy you?

Drown anet headquarters in tears.

DreamWind · May 08, 2009, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

The sad part is that most of the players that had a vast knowledge of this game whether it be PvP or PvE have stopped playing or they no longer care due to Anet's past actions in not correcting problems when faced with them.

So true. It amazes me how many people either don't know the history of Anet, or know it and expect things will be different.

I am just posting here to mention the XTH update...just another thing Anet considers more important that skill updates.